Normand 1“They're divided as much on the reserve as we are on any […] oh, even more! Even if you ask some Indians, they'll say they want nothing to do with them people [Métis]-They're First blood, they're Indian. ”

[The following interview with Normand Robichaud from Northern New Brunswick was conducted on January 20 th , 2010 at Mount Allison University from 3:30 until 4:30 pm. The interviewers were Catherine Lapointe, Ashley Brzezicki, Dr. Marilyn Walker, the students of her Cultural Ecology course in the Anthropology department and guests from the Métis community. Featured audience members are Rachel Willis, a fourth year Anthropology student at Mount Allison University, and Norbert Martin, a member of the Métis community. Normand Robichaud is a Métis individual and is skilled in conducting genealogical research. He is a well-respected and sought-out genealogical researcher in his community.]

Catherine: What is your heritage, what is your genealogical background?

Normand: Yeah well I have many lines really. I have 13 lines that I could prove, so I have, a lot of line. My genealogy - my Métis, what I would say heritage, or my Métis voyage I could say, started when I was looking for the Acadian. Because they were saying the Acadians were ignorant, so I wanted to know how come we're ignorant and these we're telling the truth, we were. So when I was following my heritage for the Acadian then I found out we have many native lines, but I knew that before because my mother told me that, but she told me not to tell anyone.

But then I was working on genealogy and doing my line, just my line. Then I found out that everybody else in my village had native blood. And I started doing any other Acadian village and it was all the same, so we were all, we're all mixed, even before deportation, or after but there was more before, because the first one that came here that, like the first one let's say Mathieu-Martin who was the first white, well he was only born in 1636 but they were here in 1604, even before so that mean that everyone that was born before that so they didn't have any woman with them, because the first one was Jeanne de Salazar, she was she was the wife of Patrincours and she was also the aunt of Charlestour because they are descendants of Charlestour then we had a lot of Indian. I could say, how could I say I'm a Métis? What we do, our language, or are we all speaking, even if you go in a Acadian village did you ever go to an Acadian village? If you want to see Métis go to Beautin Beautin of the village that's what I did you will be the poorest, you will be treated better so it's been like that all the time and we're still having the same problem to get recognized and well, like, the research I'm doing the one that giving us the more problem are the Acadian. They don't want us to be Métis.

Now in 1661 there was our first census here, and if you look in the Acadian, they are all it's all Native, every Acadian family is written native. Then in '71, we're French. They said that we were French. Then we become Acadian only in the 50's, in 53. But for the people at home I talked to the old people, they said that they like the word Acadian better for them, an Acadian was have reached. Like even the people out west. Like if you go out west you see an Acadian first of all you see a native, but here in New Brunswick, in the Maritimes, is the other way around, you're an Acadian, you're French. Even our way of helping each other, with traps, making our equipment, a lot of work that we do, we can't do it alone, we need a whole bunch even now we have tractors but before that we have to push the boat in the water and everybody was helping each other, even I know we had garden? Planting potatoes but we didn't have any fields, we would go see somebody else and the whole bunch. Everybody was helping each other out not what we see right now.

Catherine: So for you what does it mean to be Métis?

Normand: Oh for me it means, it means a lot, it means more than somebody else maybe. For me it comes from the heart. I think I have a lot of respect for, for the Natives. The biggest respect I think was for Mother Nature, in a whole. They were, they were really looking after nature, and they still are. Even, not what you see, that's the government Indian, but I mean the real Indian. If you go see, the one that is doing the whole spiritual and everything. They're they don't work, they're like Émile Gautreau, there's some in Big Cove, the Augustine's, Josée and Frank they know what spirituality is.

Ashley: Marilyn told us as well that you were doing a lot of genealogical research, and we were just wondering when and how you got started doing that research?

Normand: I started in 1990 to do genealogy. I went over at a guy at a home, he's like our historian, his name was Delcant Richard He used to work for l'Evangeline on the front page, he work 35 years for them. He was really smart and he had all our lines, well I was a Robichaud and he had all our lines, I look at that and it was 16 something, I said it can't be I said, how come, there's deportation there, well he said yes so he told me where we were during Deportation, and I couldn't believe it, because I was always trying to found that out, where was my ancestors during Deportation. Now I could found 22 lines of my line, where they were during Deportation. Another thing that I should tell you, on my mother's side, she said that she was born in 1908, her father was born in ‘63, she said that from her father, she heard that her grandmother was in the arm of her mother during the Deportation and I wanted really wanted to found out who those people were, but then I thought I was only a Robichaud I couldn't take out the other lines, and I found them both. I found where they from I found 3 lines. One it was impossible, because she wasn't-she wouldn't have been born in around deportation, and she said oh yeah, she told me a story, that I told her, what's going on, she said they were hiding in the woods. And I knew the Robichaud and them weren't hiding in the woods, because they were deported in France. I knew that, when I checked that out, it was a group from Caraquet and there were two of them Angelique Girault and Francoise Rousseau they were both Métis, and the story fits like a glove so for me it was unbelievable, I have connected myself to the Deportation, that was my, I think, my first objective, but too bad mom was gone then.

Catherine: How do you do this genealogical research? What methods do you use?

Normand: The methods that I use well first of all, I use the elders first. Down home, I went almost every house in St. Anne, I phone or check with them. I did, I went about a hundred times University of Moncton, there I did a lot of research and I have hundreds of books. My sister is a retired school teacher and she also made the book of the LeBlanc. All of them, did 2 books, my sister, she helped me a lot with that. Other research, through every Baptist and certificate that I could found, census especially census. First Nations, but there's always things missing of course.

Ashley: Obviously you've been doing this for quite a long time, and I'm sure you've developed a lot of skill in doing this genealogical research . We were wondering maybe, if you've ever, if anyone's ever come to you to ask you to help them find their own background, their own genealogical background?

Normand: Hundreds and hundreds. I started them all, really. Nobody down home, well we didn't know some of us didn't even know, well I didn't know who was on one side, ‘cause really my last name is Robichaud, but I'm not a Robichaud. I'm a Latuyette. See my father was raised by my, my grand-uncle, who was Robichaud. And nobody knew like I said, I didn't know who my grand-father was. And down home, nobody know more than their grandparents. And nobody was talking about the Indians; they didn't want to talk about that at all, even school, or...

Catherine: And do you make a living out of this?

Normand: No, no I do like coming here. You know, no I can't, it's not my style to charge. Well sometimes you have to charge something, you know what I mean. Came many times in Moncton University, and I didn't charge nothing for sure, but I mean maybe I should have. Yeah, 'cause, what pissed me off is, I found a lot of things, and they didn't even come to pick it up. A lot, a lot, oh yeah.

Catherine: So the people that come to you, are they looking to find out if they have aboriginal heritage mostly?

Normand: Yeah, mostly yeah. Mostly, yeah. But sometimes it's to make their whole card. There's all kinds, there's Irish and, yeah.

Ashley: So what kind of sources do you use to conduct this research, are there online sources that you could use? Are there governmental websites? Where do you start if you're wondering about your background?

Normand: Well, ok, if I'm looking for Acadian genealogy, sure I would go University de Moncton. But if I'm looking for Métis, I'm losing my time if I'm going there, because everything is hidden. It's not that it's not there, it's hidden, I know that. I have proof of that. How come they have it in other books, and they don't have it there. Yeah I think that's about what I would say about that.

Ashley: So you would just go to a different source altogether, you'd have to kind of make do with what you have?

Normand: Yeah I go on internet, but internet I mean well if you don't have the, the real proof, I mean, ‘cause in a book, it's not a proof but sometimes I found it strange, ‘cause we went to court for Jackie Vautour and what Stephen Augustine was bringing was from a book. Remember that, remember that right? Yeah, he was bringing but if I do that it doesn't count. How come he could bring a book?

Marilyn: So Normand, you try to find baptism records or certificates. Do you go to the church?

Normand: Yeah.

Marilyn: Archives?

Normand: Yeah but, you could go to the church, but if you go to Moncton University, they're all there. See, let's say if I go to Moncton, I could have the one from Baie St. Anne open, the one from Pointe-Sapin, St. Louis or Richibucto, a whole bunch, sometimes even six or seven. ‘Cause if you go in Pointe-Sapin, I could only have one.

Catherine: So to find the aboriginal lineage, you said earlier that you go to elders? Do you have any other sources for that?

Normand: Elders are really elders that's they told me they that the Martin were Irish, I don't believe that. But it's unbelievable what they tell you, it's like a dream sometimes. You take notes, I always take notes. Sometimes they tell you something and it can't be, then you found out in five or ten years they were telling the truth in many, many things, they're like, yeah. I just write it in like a dream, you don't know what's going on. Like Archie send me, see we didn't know we had black in our family, like my great grandmother would be black. Archie brought me a document that says that, the Mazerolles. Marilyn was saying there was a Mazerolle here a couple years ago?

Marilyn: Gladys.

Normand: Last time?

Marilyn: Yeah, Gladys.

Normand: I bet he doesn't know that he is black, eh?

Marilyn: Probably she doesn't.

Normand: No, there was in Baie de Vin, there's a cemetery, an old cemetery, that's by Baie St. Anne, there's a big, what do you call it tombstone? And it's written on it “Margaret Noble.” The reason she's having that and the reason she's having because they gave the land for the people, eh? I know she was, her name was Margaret Mazerolle and she married Robert Noble. I knew that, so I went to check that out. Then Archie brought me the census of 1861, and it says she was African. Was I ever glad! But nobody else was.

Catherine: Can you tell us what this is?

Normand: Oh, this is about the Mi'kmaq in Pointe-Sapin. It's going to be written in, I'm going to read it in French and then I'm going to have to do my best in English. “Il y a quelques jours belle-mère me disait que les Aborigènes” A couple, this was taken from the guy I was telling you about, Delcant Richard, everybody was going to his place, he would mark out the date even the time they were getting in. Every time I went to his place, mark my name, what time, what we were discussing and everything. He had a journal of that, he was quite a man. And he was interviewing so he interview his “belle-mère”, mother in law. He said a couple of days ago, he was interviewing his mother-in-law, he was asking about the Aboriginals, people call them the savages. And we call them Indians today. And they were neighbours of Guy Babin that's their great-grandfather, of them. They were in the Point de Prusse That's the beach a little further from where I live, just about a mile. And she was saying that they were living that permanently, the Indians in Pointe-Sapin, that's when we were trying to prove there were Métis village in our village, the Indians were there, right. She said they were living here, and here long. They were at Eel River, that's the river a little bit. Then he said that's the first time that she's telling that she was getting old when she was telling that, she never told him that before.

Then she told him that they were working at the shop, a lobster shop, in Point Escuminac. And in Rivière l'Anguille, there was two shops there too, and they were living there and he said, she said during the winter time they were making basket and I interview an old guy down home, he's 94 years old, his name is Alex Mazerolle and I ask him about that and he said yes and he said remember that? I know who they are, they are the family of the chief of Big Cove, the Levis. I heard Norbert talk a while ago about, while we were eating, about there were Robichaud but you made a little mistake there. Yeah, there are Robichaud lines, but they were. The Levis, the Levis you could see there are Jewish. But they had money and everything, so they adopt them. His name was Fidel Tag and that was his son, that was Peter Levi, who was the chief before Albert Levi. That's three generations up, that was there and his son, his 2 sons were fishing in his , so they were living, coming in Pointe-Sapin. He said they had, he said here, they had small shacks, they were living at year long, in small shacks made out of plank. So that's the proof really that they were living in Pointe-Sapin, but no one really wanted to talk about that, but they would come and pick blueberries. There was another guy down home, they called him, we called him Lac Doux. And I asked him how come they call you Lac Doux? And I knew he had 2 wives, and then you weren't supposed to have 2 wife down home, there was four villages and everything, and the Indians would come to pick blueberries and he would keep all of family, there were maybe 20 of them, they could all sleep on the floor. So they call him, what did they call you, in Mi'kmaq; eagle.

Marilyn: Oh, ki'tpu.

Normand: Ki'tpu! Okay! But la ki'tpu was Grand Eagle they called him Great Eagle see. But the Acadian would change the name to Lac Doux, they didn't even know, he was just a nickname.

I could tell you another story that one day there was a bunch of Indians and they were in Point d'Escuminac, and one was having her baby in a field so they went to see the woman in there, and said if one could help them, eh? So there was her grandmother, Norbert was there with them, grandmother. So she went to see, she was what do you call that...

Ashley: A midwife?

Normand: A midwife, right, right. Yeah, so she went there, and well the baby was okay and everything. And next year in the fall, now we live not far from the shore, but we don't live really in the village of Pointe-Sapin. We live a bit further right, everyone was going to the beach, and everybody was freaking out they said a whole bunch of Indians coming on the beach and they're coming down this way. So everybody was scared and they got to the first house and they were looking for that woman. Well they said they're living up there so they came there, they had all the medicine for the whole winter for the whole village, and the Indians brought all the medicine. I really like that one.

Ashley: About what you brought in, I was just wondering what kind of document is it and how old is it? Is it a journal entry?

Normand 2Normand: Well this is only in '88, but he made a lot, but I was the only one really who asked him about the Native. Before that none of, there was nothing about Métis never, never. Just a little bit about the Indians. Everybody, we were doing the same thing. I mean our way of life, I was fisherman all my life, and for me we were doing like the Métis. Archie was saying we weren't like the other people, I know that. I was not like the middle of the Acadians in the village, no I was not. And we were not. But they were trying, the school system, the system would try to put us in that, but we always we did it.
Photo of Normand and Roland

Let's say you have an English class here, say if you have something on the blackboard and the teacher is there, you could go in the corridor in the break and talk about it. But not the Métis, they wanted nothing to do about that. We were out of it, and that's it. I noticed that the English people would talk about their subject, but we weren't interested. We weren't interested in education or- I know I wasn't.

Ashley: I was wondering if you've ever been met with any kind of adversity when you were doing your research- if anyone's ever told you, you know, maybe you shouldn't be doing this, if you've ever had any kind of hardship doing this research?

Normand: All the time. Not now though, not anymore. The first, I would say the- we started you know, the nineties, you know the nineties. Then the first, well Donald Marshall [Referencing the Mi'kmaq man who was wrongfully accused of murder who, in 1999 received the landmark ruling from the Supreme Court of Canada that aboriginal treaty rights to fish and hunt will be honoured] after this decision and when they attacked Burnt Church and everything you see there were 12 boys from Pointe-Sapin that attacked that. That hurt me very much because they were all my friends, see. I was fishing, doing my life with them and it changed after that. See, I couldn't go back, after you change you can't go back. But I don't blame them. I mean, if I wouldn't have known what I knew then, I would have been maybe right with them. But when I knew, I couldn't understand how come he won his case, holy Christ! And first of all it was, in all of history, that was the first time that the Acadians had a fight with the- you never see that, even before the Deportation. There was never a charge between the French and the Indians, never. They never went to court; they could settle it between the priest or whoever. But I'm not saying that the English and the French-which one was the first for the Acadians? They were both guilty. Both of them. The French didn't help us at all, no, not at all. They could have come here. Oh no, what happened, they wanted that to happen.

Catherine: We've heard a lot of cases where the Acadian people or other people do not too well to the Métis or Aboriginal people, how are the Métis perceived by other First Nations People?

Normand: Well, the French doesn't want us, the Acadians doesn't want us but it's getting better. Even what Émile- Émile even when he came in Pointe-Sapin, that was really good. That was good for- I think that the critics stopped right there. I never had nobody criticizing me after that. I don't know why, no, they- it was different. But, no more joined, I mean, nobody joined. I thought maybe they were-somebody's going to join but no, it stays the way. But I mean, the way of thinking was, even my sisters, I had two of my sisters there and it surprised me because it was two of them that I never thought would come there.

Catherine: What do you mean when you say “would come there”? Or “joined”?

Normand: Yeah well, when Émile came down, not too many people- we never…I never announce it, to nobody. Just Norbert and them, we knew but nobody else, we didn't the people. Just a couple of our friends. Cause, well we invited the priest, but that's it, just a couple. I wanted to know what the people was going to say or and no, the critics, we thought we were going to have a lot of critics but we didn't, not really. I mean we don't I'm not friends with them anymore. That happened around '99, Marshall's decision or when they went to Burnt Church, but I mean I still talk to them, everybody. I mean it's the same thing, we just don't visit the same way. I don't back off, I'm like Archie, that's the way it is and that's-anyway I made a promise when I started doing the research I said: I'll accept anything that's thrown at me. I want the truth, that's all I want. I knew there was something off. A lot of things that, it's not beautiful, even in my line. I have pirates on my oh yeah, rapists, I had all kinds. I mean we all have them. It wouldn't surprise me that all of you, even if you're English, you're all related, I know that. It's not that big, cause just in my village, that's from, we started, we were down 1810, they were- in Pointe-Sapin. And every marriage there is not a marriage that are more that third cousin. They were all third cousin at least, even me and my wife, we were second cousins. Even if you go in another village, we're all related. Even with the Irish, they've been here for

Ashley: About the question that Catherine asked, “how are the Métis people perceived by other First Nations people?” You said that the situation's getting better- I was wondering if you knew of any initiatives, if anyone's trying to make unity with the other First Nations groups? Do you know if there are any organizations maybe working together that are…?

Normand: Only me. [Laughter] Ok, I got critic, I got I went to Big Cove a couple times when, when that all started. Cause for me, they looked at me as an Acadian. For me I was it was: “Who sent you here?”- That's what they were telling me. “Who's paying you?” and things like that. But now they know better cause they know now I'm friends with Stephen Augustine, who's a curator in Ottawa. So that helps a lot, and I knew – I started meeting the people with the spirituality of so that helps a lot but they're divided too. They're divided as much on the reserve as we are on any oh, even more! Even if you ask some Indians, they'll say they want nothing to do with them people –They're First blood, they're Indian.

Ashley: They're-when you say they're divided on the reserve do you mean Métis people or, I guess any kind of First Nation?

Normand: Any kind of First Nations, yeah. But, yeah, but even the Métis cause there's a lot of marriage too eh? Especially people from Claire-Fontaine. There's some married- and even Jackie's son is married to a girl in Big Cove. They're- how could I say that- but it's a division everywhere. But I could not say, it's not like, let's say –here you're a whole class and you're all doing the same thing. It's not like that in a village. But it was a lot better years ago. See years ago everybody was – but now there's too much division, it's too many things. It's computers and a hundred and some channels on TV. You can't say “Did you watch that last night?” cause what channel is it? So, that's the way it goes. It's hard to keep up with the- I think the Métis was the same thing. But to say that we are having problems, we had a little problem when we went up North, with them, maybe that was our fault.

Catherine: What happened?

Normand: Archie they say that they called them the rock-throwers, eh? [Laughter]

Catherine: Why is that? What happened?

Normand: When they were young they were throwing rocks at… [Laughter] In Baie Saint-Anne, the people from Baie Saint-Anne were scared of them.

Catherine: Ok, is there any place or any organization or ceremonies where Métis people can get together and about their experiences, or even just attend ceremonies?

Normand: Ah, well every, there's- there's a lot of groups. There's one in Fredericton that we could be part of cause we have a great-grandmother who's, in the census of 1861, Anne Petitpas, she's registered as a savages. See, I could have, I could go to Fredericton and get my card there. We never went- all of us, we made all- Oh he's got his! Ok yeah, this is the line. But then ok, then I have a group up North. I'm part of that, I was- I was 6 years with the administration with them. I was even with a group in Moncton. Which I wanted- that's where I started really to find out what –what was all about. But to say there was a group…I would say the only group is Émile. I would say that Émile is like, everybody. For him it's not just- for me Émile is not just talking about me, he's talking about everybody. We're all mixed anyway.

Catherine: And when you say that you're with a group in Moncton and Fredericton- what did you guys do in this group?

Normand: Well for me my job was mostly genealogy and get the most, get them informed. So I told hundreds of people, and what was going on is we're all Métis, but it's up to them to find out if they wanted to. In Moncton, I don't know if they were making for the Métis at all, to tell you the truth. I'm asking that question now. I think, well I'm questioning all the groups, anyway, in the Maritimes. I wonder if they're working for us. Even Fredericton, even the group that's in Nova Scotia-what-Roland Surette was it? I'm just wondering. It's not what the Métis want; it's what the government told them. Cause when we, when the group in Fredericton, it's not what we asked, it was what they were so we figure it was going to be not better than was it was, it is right now. All it's doing is changing the picture. Instead of putting a new one, I'm going to put that one now- it's all the same. I know we don't have enough- I know we should have-like this, that should be done, two or three times a year, many places. But we don't have that. That's- yeah. Not enough culture that's I don't know Even the group in Fredericton they don't have no-not enough. They don't have that to show the people what being Métis is all about.

Catherine: What would you like to see for the future of the Métis people?

Normand: Ok, for the future see my mind changed from the last couple years. I would like to see that we be recognized-at least we would be recognized. But, and that we would know more about our culture. We should be reminded that this land wasn't given to us by our ancestors; this land belongs to our children. It is for our children. If we would think like that, if we say “This is our right!”-no, no, no, this is for our children. This is given to us for our children. If people would think like that I think you would have a good start. We have to work on that. It's just the other way around, that's all it is. Even the Métis and the Indians are thinking that way now. That this land it should be- ok the charter of rights should be a charter of responsibility. We should be responsible. I think Émile- he's the best. He's showing us we need responsibility if we want Métis to succeed.

Ashley: So how far near in the future do you see the Métis being recognized?

Normand: Well, if they don't kill us all in 2012, we should- something should be done around then. I think we're almost there- but sometimes wonder if we're not too late.

Ashley: So in a few years then?

Normand: Yeah.

Rachel: I have two questions. The first pertains to work on genealogy and- once you've collected the information, does it go into some sort of database that can be referred to for future purposes or does it remain in a personal collection?

Normand: It could be both, it could be both. It could be your own personal…I don't do it that way. What I found I put it for everybody and everybody I gave them the reference where they could get it. I do that to everybody because I don't think- it shouldn't be something for money. This should be for ourself. I think that's where we went wrong. There were people working for money and it didn't work. Some were changing like a hundred dollars just for a line and still they still had to go and found that and…And if you don't know where to look it takes you a lot of time.

Rachel: My second question is unrelated to your work with genealogy and relates more to your work as a fisherman. At the moment we're studying the changing state of the ocean with climate change. And human activities that are affecting the ocean. So I was wondering, as a lobster fisherman, if you've witnessed any changes- whether they be in lobster catches, or how lobster fishing practices have changed over the years?

Normand: Oh, yes. Everything changed. Well, it used to be at Mother's Day- May, first week of May, down at Pointe-Sapin and Escuminac, there was herring. The ocean was green, it wasn't blue, it was green. And now there's none anymore. Just that that's approved. Right now, we can't even make a living. There's no way we can make a living just fishing. It doesn't work. Let's say we catch 5 tones, well what's five tones? That's just a pay for your boat payment and your trap. It's …traps used to coast five dollars, now it's seventy/eighty dollars. It's made out of wire and… We used to make everything on a trap, everything! Even the bait pin, with a piece of wood, now we use a spike. Everything was done by hand, now it's a machine. Right now, well my brother, his boat is payed and he can't even make- he doesn't have any- all his children doesn't go to school anymore, it's all over. And he doesn't know if he can continue a year. Last year he caught five tones but he says five tones- then you finish the year with 1200$. What are you going to do with 1200$? You have to wait six weeks for unemployment. It's really, really bad, especially our place. Everywhere I think, for the fishing, now we have the First Nations that-they have their rights. They have their rights- well first of all it was theirs. What they did, they took away their rights and they gave us their privilege, to the Acadians- that's what happens.

Ashley: Were there any other questions?

Norbert: Do you know what- if I can make a remark: Do you know what the first species of fish species that were at risk in the Americas?

Ashley: Was it cod?

Norbert: It was around the 1600's. It was the oyster- the pearl that they fished from oysters in the Caribbean, that the Spanish were using slaves from Africa and also Natives to dive. And they had to stop for a while for fishing. I read that in “Champlain's Dream”. The other thing is, you're asking about the organizations. I'll give you a little lesson in organizations, that they do have groups around. Have you ever heard of associations? They're everywhere . Do you know the requirements of the associations? That is, from the government there's nobody policing it. All you need to form an association- you need members, a president and you need directors. Once you get the money- and then you need members. Once you get the money, you're not responsible to the members. You don't pay tax, you get to do whatever you want with the money- the people who are running it. Now, if you have a complaint against your organization, your association, you can't put a complaint against them. It has to be against a member of the association and they have to be criminal in nature and the RCMP will investigate. Now, they say well how come that they have these associations and nothing's done about it? All political parties are associations. Does that tell you something? That these people that win and say “Oh we're with a charity, we're going to help the Métis, we're going to help the Indians” and all that this- they're pocketing the money. At the end of the year they give themselves honorariums. 10,000$. They're supposed to pay tax; they don't pay tax on it because there's no audit done on it by the Federal or Provincial government, Department of Justice. I did this research because we were thinking about having a look at an association. So that's one of the reasons why they say “Well, what are they doing, the groups?” Once you get in there and, I'll give you an example of a group like in Fredericton. Say ok, Normand's a fisherman. He could get a boat. He gets a boat; he has to go through the associations. They say if he's going to be captain or not; is he going to be running the boat every year. He has to buy the equipment every year and that to fish. Now over the winter if he gets in a squabble with the people running the program, he doesn't get it, to be captain. He doesn't get the boat; he's stuck with the fishing gear. So what is that? It's a form of slavery. It's like you're telling me if I can have it or not, you know. If I don't you know, bootlicker or whatever you call it, suck up to you to get the position, I don't get it. Would you like to live under that? That's the system that there was before in fishing. In the Miramichi, where I come from. That's some of the problems we're having today, these associations. I don't believe in them. And people, the majority of people that say that they do charity work, 90%, they're doing it for an anterior motive. I'll give you a good example, politicians will become bored of a- on a school board, they go on Cosgrove's board to get known by good people. And do you know how much the government lies to us? That's all it is, it's just lies coming at you.

Normand: When the first- after the Deportation, the Acadians needed land, when they came back. And they asked the government-the government as the natives- I take it is was Dorchestor or things like that or Carleton- anyway he said: you have too much land; we'll give some to the Acadians. And the taxes we'll collect, we'll give it to you. They never had a damn cent. And you know what's going on with all the land. But what I want to say right now is when they gave the land to the Acadian people, well, you don't just give the land, you give them the right to hunt and fish and gather. That's, like I say, even the Acadians have the same rights as us. For me that's why down home, I don't buy any hunting license. I don't hunt but even if I would hunt, I don't buy that. Because I have the right. I know my ancestors told me that. Now we're proving that. They just, didn't just say you have a piece of land, you have to- cause that was in 18- oh 1785 they start having that? Well they needed to fish and hunt. They- them laws are still there.

Marilyn: Merci beaucoup

Normand: Ok thank you very much and I hope it wasn't too bad. I'll write you a note and I'll send you your lobster.